$100 for 45 Minute Set

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sue Rarick on March 30, 2011 at 6:25pm

Good to see another post from you Dave......

 

If it's a new band and it covers the gig costs it would be worth it to get name recognition. No, if it is an established band. And in both cases the band should get 100% of tips and merchandise sales.

 

It's not really a fair price but at the moment promoters have the upper hand.

Permalink Reply by Chad Nordhoff on March 30, 2011 at 8:37pm

...under what conditions?

What's in it for the band? $100 isn't anything for a serious band to consider. That money won't even make it back home. What does the band get out of the 45 minute set? That's what I would be more concerned with. Is there something other than money to be gained? IF a band takes the gig, they'd be suckers to carry anything heavy or pay to park etc.

My drummer and I had been practicing on Sunday nights. After a show one night we were offered a non-payed gig at a local club on Sundays. The only difference is, I don't have to stop and pick up a 6 pack on the way to practice.

Permalink Reply by Sue Rarick on March 31, 2011 at 11:35am

Kind of sad.... anytime there is a serious discussion, it's the same players, Dave, Chad and myself.

Permalink Reply by Chad Nordhoff on March 31, 2011 at 12:07pm

You noticed that too.

Permalink Reply by CHC Network on March 31, 2011 at 1:33pm

Sue,. and Chad, Please don't take me wrong here, I look forward to the exchanges we have,  and fully respect your opinions, but I also thought in the months I have been absent from this forum that this would have changed.  Hope you are both doing well, and this first quarter of this year has proven bountiful for both of you.   Well, as much as it is, let's discuss this matter. 

 

Chad, you mention a venue owner offering you an unpaid gig.   I hear this all the time.  Venue owners have offered and continued to offer everything from Battles of the Bands, Benefit concerts, open mics, door share deals, and what benefit to the musician:  exposure.  To use a line that I had heard, "I have heard people have been arrested for and have died from exposure."   Have either of you ever been approached with these offers?   How were these offers presented?  What was your gain? 

 

In all of these offers was there one that offered you a flat rate-guarantee of any money?   This $100 was a minimum that you would make for a three-quarter hour.  For a band of four, this comes to $25 an hour and amount that is now more than what assembly line workers are making at the big three auto-makers here in Michigan.  In fact, after a considerable lay-off, it was said over the radio as I was driving home this morning, many of the returning workers, who had to take concessions to return to work,  as well as new hires, are making approximately $15 per hour.,   

 

From this $15 an hour, are taken taxes (both Fed and state, and in some instances, depending on where a worker lives, city taxes) Medicare, Social Security, and union dues (dd I forget anything).   This normally before the employee receives a dime.

 

As an independent musician, you can deduct any costs you incur in doing your work.  You are an independent business person.

 

By comparison, you are making for this hour, what is being made by these professionals:  Forensic Science Technician, Radiologic technologist, medical scientist, producer and director, audiologist, etc.  Here is a list of 25 professions that make this  http://www.careerbuilder.com/Article/CB-1138-Job-Search-Strategies-...  How do you compare in education, certification requirements and in some instances licensing (which in some cases are required once a year)?

 

Now it's been said that you have to travel, and set up.  That's correct.  This is something that required by most employees regardless of occupation.  If you are employed, it's certain you commute to get back and forth to work.   This is normally something not covered by the employer, so has to be absorbed by the employee, as well as the time that it takes to get back and forth.  (As jobs are so few here in Michigan, I have an hour commute one way to get back and forth to work.)   As an independent musician, this can be written off against your taxes.  This is one cost of doing business.  This is one of the benefits of being independently employed.

 

Realizing that as a musician you do travel to get to a gig,  because of what I have planned, the musician would be driving a minimal number of miles to each gig.   I would be drawing musicians from a limited radius from each venue. 

 

Also, because set up is a consideration,  I would be arranging for a back-line including drum sets for each concert. 

 

To this guaranteed minimum you can add this:  ticket sales.  I would give each band who agrees to perform a minimum of twenty tickets that they can sell for $15-20 each.  This would be an additional $300-400 to the band.   If you want more, I can offer you up to fifty tickets which, if you sell these, would give you upwards of $750-1000 to the band.  I would not ask for, nor expect a kick back on these ticket sales.  This would be money that you would pocket. and for what?  A forty five minute set.  

 

If a musician is opposed to doing their own marketing, and cannot sell twenty tickets,  I would not be interested in working with them.  For a band of four, this would be five tickets per band member.  If you sold tickets to your mother and father and your brother and his wife, and possibly a buddy,  you would have sold five tickets.  This would be an additional $75-100 you would make.

 

Why would I take this position, who better to sell to your fan base?  As I may not know you personally,  and I haven't followed your career, I wouldn't know who your fans are.  You do.  Maybe they would enjoy watching you perform in another setting. 

 

Why would a musician refuse to promote themselves? 

 

In addition, as each of these venues I will be promoting have, as a rule, a sound tech guy and a lighting tech,  and as this will be part of a series of concerts I will promote, I will be looking into the possibility of  having these performances taped by the sound board.  The reason I want to limit each performance to forty five minutes is that this is the average length of a CD.  Although I will maintain a master copy of each concert, I will give you a copy of your performance.  You can do with this as you please.  Personally, I would look into having this copy mastered. and turned into something that you would be proud to offer for sale.  I would be picking up the cost of this live recording.  You would owe me nothing additionally.

 

Because it is my desire to promote the venue as much as the musician,  I would also be looking into possibility of hiring a photographer and a videographer (when available).  Although I would like to maintain the originals, you would receive copies of all photos taken of you, whether in performance or elsewhere in the venue.  Because these would likely be digital, you can use yours to decorate your website, or any other site on which you have a presence.  These would be professionally taken, and you would be ensured of the quality of each.  By and large I think most band videos I see on youtube suck.

 

These venues that I will be promoting all have green rooms.  Whether you care to be part of the audience, or wait your time in the green room until you go on,  you will be treated to food and beverage in the green room.  And here we are not talking cold hot dogs on stale buns.  

 

As for beverages, if you prefer and adult beverage, and you have a few, I will make arrangements to either put you up at a hotel, or arrange a cab to take you home.  I am opposed to drunk driving, and would not want anything to happen to anyone who agrees to perform. 

 

Now to return to the original question of this post,  in light of what I have outlined, would an assured $100 for 45 minutes be fair? 

 

Regarding these venues,  I am looking at the possibility of promoting concerts in the small historic theaters throughout Michigan.  These are the old vaudeville houses and early movie theaters built from the late 1800s- 1930s.   These were build before the earliest sound systems, so were created acoustically perfect.  Many of the ones which still exist have been meticulously and painstakingly restored to their original grandeur.  Why would this interest me?   When I was younger, Detroit became recognized as Rock City.  The venues in which we performed were built during this same period.  But being built in Detroit were some of the biggest theaters and ballrooms ever designed.  They pre-dated the first sports arenas built downtown.  When the arenas were built these ballrooms were closed and though some may have survived these past thrity-forty years,  they have experienced the ravages of time. At that time we didn't see much value in trying to preserve these experiences in photos or sound.   Sad.  I think it would be interesting if  we would try to preserve the last remaining. 

Permalink Reply by Chad Nordhoff on April 1, 2011 at 9:51pm

"Have either of you ever been approached with these offers?   How were these offers presented?  What was your gain?"

These deals may be more common than ever as the working musician is replaced by the laptop. The offers are usually presented with a "that's the deal that other bands take" clause. In my current case, we simply move our operation a few miles and practice at an empty club. More importantly, I've finally worked myself into a tradeable venue. When other bands are touring, i can help them get booked at this club. The bands then return the favor. It amounts to the use of connections as currency. However, this approach only works as part of a larger, more detailed plan.

 

In this climate, the person looking for "work" as a guitar player etc. really has very little to look forward to. On the UP side, I'm noticing a trend towards QUALITY even in smaller venues. The weekend warriors are not making the cut. (who could have predicted?)

 

The idea to put professional bands into classic venues is excellent. Just look at the History Channel. Pawn Stars, American Pickers, American Restoration, and other nostalgic reality shows are in high demand. America is starting to think twice about our wally world throw-away culture. There's still a rough road ahead but performances and productions of an organic nature could be HUGE again. 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Sue Rarick on March 31, 2011 at 8:37pm

Now that I know why the original question was asked I can give a better and more complete opinion.

You can swap out band recognition with concert recognition. I was around for Filmore East and the Capitol Theatre era. It took some time to get them established as must see events. Till then bands were not paid a great deal and many times more money could be made doing a bar gig at one of the huge Long Island/ Jersey Shore bars. But some bands with foresight skipped the bar gig, and made out very well in the long run (think George Thoroughgood). I am assuming that you are hoping for reoccurring concerts using the same venues on a regular schedule.

In my younger days the closest I came to that offer was a gate fee. The offers then were $250 as a PIA (paid in advance) and a set fee per patron. That per patron fee was based on your groups popularity in the area. For example ‘The Rascals’ would be paid the minimum per patron along the Jersey Shore circuit, but the maximum per patron in their home, The Long Island circuit, where they were the most popular band. I should point out that those bars had capacities from 2000 to 5000 each. And during the Summer they would be filled and have a good turnover (this explains how I used music to pay for college). BTW- That was for 3 sets and a 4^th jam session.

Back to subject at hand. Given the extra income opportunities I would see the $100 as a PIA. The band tickets are a great idea.

A few more ideas:

1.Set a reasonable profit figure and then pay each band a percentage over that figure (Something like 10-15% per band of that figure)

2. Most of those theatres had an area where merchandise can be sold. Provide a person to sell the bands merchandise along with the concert’s promo merchandise. The promoter should charge a commission of about 10% which will pay the sales person. And maybe make a few dollars profit.

3. Most Vegas shows have a meet and greet at the exits. It makes a good connection between the bands and fans.

I would not allow booze. Remember people have worked hard for the money they are shelling out for a ticket. There are a lot of other things they could have spent it on and decided to give it to you (you includes the bands). There is a running joke here in Nashville. “You live in Nashville but make your money away from Nashville” The point of that is that there is a mystique surrounding a Nashville musician and it’s that mystique that explains why Nashville groups tend to make more money. Not saying it’s deserved, just that it exists. The lesson to be learned is that there should remain some kind of mystique and watching a bunch of drunken musicians is not conducive to that goal.

Staying with the audience. You have to switch the backline fairly quickly. You have what amounts to 3 acts and two scenery changes. The faster you make them the better for the flow and audience appreciation. It’s not really hard to do. It just takes a bit of pre-planning.

 

Permalink Reply by CHC Network on April 1, 2011 at 2:49pm

Sue,

Actually these are some very good ideas.  I particularly like the idea of giving a percentage. 

 

I had thought to include the merch sales, but forgot that in this list.  But realistically, in as much as this is a good way to brand oneself, how many T-shirts, ball caps and coffee mugs can one fan own?   If you want to look at the kings of merchandising band stuff look at Kiss.  They even had a coffin at one time with a Kiss motif.   Too bad other bands aren't this creative.

 

As for the back line, considering time, I had thought to offer a back-line and to that end seek a sponsorship possibly from a music store, etc. 

 

Permalink Reply by Sue Rarick on April 1, 2011 at 4:17pm

As far as merchandise is concerned. You have to decide if the plan is for a one time venture or a regular series. If it’s a regular series you can’t start soon enough to brand yourself. Also taking from the casino shows. At the end of every show performers do a meet and greet with the audience as they leave. That does two things. It puts the audience one on one with the performers, which leads to more merchandise sales. It’s also something that Willie Nelson has done for decades. And is a factor in why he is so popular after all these years.

Each venue will have some sort of backline available. Getting a music store to sponsor what needs to be filled in is a good idea. But if need be you should consider rolling pallets to set-up the equipment for quick changes. Plus having the right kind and number of junction boxes. It’s all about being professional.

A couple of other suggestions. Get a credit card account to accept visa/mc but not AE (they have a lousy program). This will be used for advance ticket sales (see next suggestion), ticket sales and merchandise. Secondly you need a website for the production company where you can promote dates, groups, advance ticket sales, merchandise, etc.